Brave By Design

Benevolent Sexism and Effective Allyship at Work with Julie Kratz

March 03, 2020 Laura Khalil Episode 8
Brave By Design
Benevolent Sexism and Effective Allyship at Work with Julie Kratz
Show Notes Transcript

In this week's episode of Brave by Design we talk to Julie Kratz about effective allyship at work and the benevolent sexism you may be facing. ⁠

In this episode we discuss:⁠

How to have difficult conversations⁠
The right and wrong way to conduct meetings (and how to fix them)⁠
And how benevolent sexism may be effecting you at work⁠
... and so much more!⁠

Julie Kratz is a highly-acclaimed leadership trainer who leads teams and produces real results in corporate America. After experiencing her own career “pivot point,” Julie developed a process for women leaders to build winning game plans. She lends her expertise around gender equality and leadership as a keynote speaker, workshop facilitator, and executive coach.

Her book, Lead Like and Ally:
Julie's website:

Connect with Laura Khalil online:
Invite Laura to speak at your event

Support the show (

Laura Khalil:   0:00
This is brave By design Episode eight on Recognizing benevolent sexism and Effective Fellowship at Work with Julie Kratz Welcome to Brave by design I'm your host LL Oracle, Ill. I'm an entrepreneur, coach and speaker. I love thinking big, exploring the power of personal development and sharing the best strategies from thought leaders and pioneers and business to empower ambitious women and allies to bravely rise and thrive. Let's get started. Hey, everyone, welcome back to the show. This is Laura Calil. Today's episode is a great continuation of what we heard in our last episode with carrying Catlin. Julie Craft is gonna talk a lot about being an effective ally once you're inside the organization. Last week, we talked about howto have inclusive hiring practices. Now, how do you be an effective ally once you're in? So we have a really great conversation about something called benevolent sexism. Now, if you have not heard that term before, keep listening. Because this is gonna like light up some major light bulbs. By the way, both men and women are capable of doing it and probably have done it, so it's great to be aware of. We also talked about how have effective meetings, difficult conversations and so much more? I think you are going to love this episode. It's pretty cool. Also, I want to ask you this question, and you have an event coming up. Were you're looking to bring in a dynamic and engaging speaker or trainer to help your team become more effective in its communication and learn the skills to rise in their careers? If so, gimme a holler. I would love to work with you. I offer a variety of talks and workshops to build engaged, inclusive teams. You can learn more about that at force of bad ass. Sorry dot com or by shooting me an email at Laura at force of bed asri dot com I'd love to hear from you, So I'm really excited because we have a new segment of this show that I'm calling inspired action of the week. So each week I'll be giving you an inspired action to think about, meditate on and actually take action towards to help you be brave by design. You can pop in our Facebook group over at break by design to share your inspired action with fellow listeners and learn from our awesome community. So it's a great way to stay engaged when you're not listening to the show. Um, so this week's inspired action is about building relationships with people online that you want a network with. You probably don't know them, and you're like, How the heck did I do that? So here's what I want you to do. This week. Make one new connection and one deposit into the relationship bank account with, Um, no, let me talk about the first part of that. I'm gonna break that down. So that's clear. Who is someone you admire? Think about that first. It doesn't have to be a celebrity or Oprah, someone who's like, you know, at the top of their game. But find someone in your field who's doing what you would love to do and connect with them. I am a huge fan of Lincoln, and if you were looking to build your business, I strongly recommend you be more active on there. But if you prefer Instagram or Twitter, do that connect with them. Now let's talk about making those deposits. I want you to make one deposit this week. So what does that actually mean? well, here's what happens with people that are in demand or are sort of higher up in their field. They get a lot of people client at them for stuff. Everyone wants something, and the fact is that people who try to take before they give are not well received. So I want you to think about your relationship with people, is having a joint bank account, and you can make deposits and you can make withdrawals. And if you want to build relationships with people, you've got to start by making deposits into that joint bank account. So here's what deposits can look like. Thoughtful comments on something they've posted a word of congratulations sharing an article they've written with your commentary attached. Maybe you buy their book and review it or take their course and engage with it. It can mean making an introduction or quoting them in something that you're writing. The thing is, as soon as you make deposits a habit of your day today interactions with people, you will find it much easier to get to know people. We're much more likely to engage with individuals who show that they genuinely care about us and want to converse with us and want to get to know us. So do let me know if you try that out, join us over in the brave by design Facebook group and tell me all about it. I would love to hear from you. Without further ado, let's get into this week's episode with Julie Kratz. Everyone welcome to Brave by design. I am so excited to talk with our guest today. Julie Kratz is a highly acclaimed leadership trainer who leads teams and produces riel results in corporate America. After experiencing her own pivot point, Julie developed a process for women leaders to build winning game plans. She lends her expertise around gender equality and leadership as a keynote speaker, workshop facilitator and executive coach. Her most recent book Lied Like an Ally. A Journey through Corporate America with proven strategies to facilitate. Inclusion was just released, and I love that Julie. Welcome to the show. What an

Julie Kratz:   5:51
introduction. I love that. Thanks for having me.

Laura Khalil:   5:55
Oh, it's so great, you know. And one of the questions I often get, you know, also as a coach and as a speaker, people say, you know, how the heck did you get into that because it's not like we just graduate from university. Or, like, you know what? I'm going to be an executive coat. You

Julie Kratz:   6:13
don't even know it's a career option.

Laura Khalil:   6:15
Exactly. So I would love if you could start by telling us a little bit about your story and how you have gotten where you are. Thank

Julie Kratz:   6:23
you. Ah, yeah. So it's It's one of the most common questions I get asked. And I think for those in the corporate world, I think it's hard sometimes to your point toe, to see through the corporate landscape in see what's possible on the other side. And I myself very much was in that frame of mind I served, I like to say, served 12 years in corporate America, did my time. Um, your

Laura Khalil:   6:48
humor of duty, right? And some years were

Julie Kratz:   6:50
really great. I mean, honestly, I look back with a lot of fond memories about the experiences and gives me such great context now operating my own business. Um, 56 years later, I know what it's like. It is changing and thankfully ah, but I know what the challenges are. The workplace inclusion cause I experienced it myself. And so, um, how I got into this is I was really thankful that I had some really great what I call analyze along the way. You know, people that kind of helped me see what I couldn't see. Um, And as they ventured through corporate America, you know, I remember several managers saying things like, No, I'd like to work for you someday or hey, you should really get your coat. Coaching certification will help you with that so that you can help you provide that leadership to our team. And you're great facilitator of dialogues. Why don't you wanna do that more injured? Just help point out things to me. And I know the while the thread that that really has run through my career And since I was a very little girl, if you choose to look back to the kind of innate gifts you have, um, I had a single mother growing up at I mean, I remember from a young age. I remember. The first memory is age eight. You know, being upset by some sort of sexist joke. My mom you like, you know, you really should think about how you could help girls and later became women. And I remember when I went to business school, she was just like, Why?

Laura Khalil:   8:18
Why Wait? What do you want to do that? Really? Huh? Well, I think she's

Julie Kratz:   8:23
like, you're really meant to help women like you see way more excited about Pat. Julie. Yeah, but you're supposed to do this. This is what success is like in America is corporate America, right? It is early 2000 and that's what you think you want. That's where today I I understand what she was trying to tell me. And sadly, I lost my mom quite some time ago in my early twenties. And so I remember those words, you know, kind of haunting me literally of e to think about this and helping women. And now we get to do that. So I feel really, really, um, humbled and grateful for the work that I get to do today. But I think a challenge. Your listeners of your you're wondering, you know what's next for Yale? I mean, really, take is even look in the mirror and think about the things that people will do of your life, especially those that really know you on what light? Your fire and, um, sandwich. The other thing, I think, is really upsetting for music. How it's been there all along, and I just was not looking at it. But, you know, I

Laura Khalil:   9:21
set yourself up. Wait

Julie Kratz:   9:25
40 and I have plenty of time to live my purpose out.

Laura Khalil:   9:28
So it's okay. It is okay. And by the way, I think that's so beautiful how your mom's memory and legacy is living on and you talk about her in the beginning of the book and you say some interesting things that really resonated with me you mentioned. Since the early two thousands, we have been subtly telling women to forget that there are women and to act more like minute work, as if years of gender socialized behaviors ingrained in us can be forgotten. Impossible. And so I think that my emphasis. But But, you know, I wanted talk a little bit more about that because when I was growing up, my parents and especially, you know, my mom would say, and debt just work hard. This is a meritocracy. You do good work, people will notice. But that is, in my opinion, actually, a very patriarchal viewpoint. Um, can you tell us a little bit more about, um, how we have been sort of taught to act like men and the challenges with that?

Julie Kratz:   10:33
Yeah, my priest shape that. Yeah, meritocracy is correct. It's the myth of meritocracy that is very much alive and well in a white dominated, patriarchal society. I mean, that's where we are. Still day. Look at the top of any company. Even in the nonprofit sector, it's mostly let by white men. And so I think this isn't a zero sum game. It's not about taking men's positions, but I think it is that really solid. Look at Hey, if things are equal, I just have to work harder. And women are getting more and bay dance degrees and graduating from college at higher rates than men like. Then why isn't it shifting right? Why hasn't it quite panning out in the workplace? And the math does not add up? And, um, I think it is because of the experience says it's sounds like you had an I had and many Gen X and millennials women had, and we're starting to share the same message with Gen. Z about like just work hard, but you're especially for women. Put your head down. Your hard work will show. Meanwhile, your male colleague is self promoting high building relationships. Uh, you're telling anybody and everybody what they want and women aren't doing the same thing. And that's that's not fair, that that's just not good, right? And it has to do with behaviors were taught as a child. And we're still teaching these being If you're I see it with my six year old daughter and very sad to see how little has changed. We still teach girls to please others to not be bossy way. Don't say those things to boys. Boys will be boys. I mean, we're still saying that we wonder my sexual harassment happens later in light. Um, And so these messages I'm doing some of these messages from a very early age is it's something I'm really passionate about. I just launched a nuke podcast called The Inclusion School to address some of that with Children. Um, because I find myself in classrooms and organizations now trying to undo behavior with adults. Right? Meghna, decades of in green,

Laura Khalil:   12:28
selling your range. Yeah, it's it's really hard to recognize, you know, especially if we've gotten very used to it. I know one of the things. So first about the book, just so the audience is this spans, like a variety of important topics, and I actually feel so we did an episode right before this with caring Catlin on How do you build inclusive hiring practices? And as I was reading your book, I really felt like, OK, once you've read that. Now read this.

Julie Kratz:   12:57
Yeah, I appreciate Karen's a deer friend.

Laura Khalil:   13:01
Okay, I love that because it was like, um, this is what's next? Once you're in the organization, here's what we need to dio. And I know one of the things that you, um So you talk about, you know, establishing ally networks. Um, how to fix broken cultural challenge is improving meeting behavior and stuff like that. Let's talk about cleaning up the culture. So when I was in Silicon Valley, we were told that you know, the ping pong tables and the beer o'clock. Those were supposed to draw people into an organization. Those air kind of like the carrot at the end of the stick. And maybe they do draw certain people in but you talk a little bit about that and a lot more about things that are really culturally exclusive and are really only pandering to a certain audience. Can you tell us a little more about that?

Julie Kratz:   13:56
Yeah. Now you're right. I mean, the ping pong tables and the beer, um, are great examples. Token examples of what cos I think well intended cos we're trying to do to be inclusive and to show they cared about their employees. So it came. Ah, lot of negative behavior comes from a really good place, and that's what makes it really hard test separate the intention versus the impact of that behavior. Intention, good impact. It is exclusionary. And if yes, most women in Silicon Valley or in any tech hub what they think of the ping pong tables from, don't enjoy them. I'm guessing

Laura Khalil:   14:32
their eyes also roll out of the back of their head because that's what happened to me. It is a

Julie Kratz:   14:36
very that's a very gender stereotypical responses, making a lot of general generalizations that gender is binary, and we know Jenner's way more complicated than that. But just to be just to live in the stereotypical world that tends to hold true, Um, the incentives that we give to young men versus young women and so much of it's just if you do some a little unpacking and the culture in the employee experience that you're creating, you know, I use some examples from my time in corporate America. You know, they only made men sizes and some of the clothing that you were offered. Um, the good one, Julie Ho. And it's still very, very common today. And companies will say, Well, we only have a few women so they could store them in sizes like Did you really like it? Do you really want

Laura Khalil:   15:23
more women than

Julie Kratz:   15:24
because you can't even bother to fight? I offender that can make clothing that's designed for them? Um, and that's it. That's a big one. Um, everything from like food preferences to and and working Mother. There's any that is. The maternal wall is still the largest area of gender bias today, and you have to think again. The workplace had been designed by women. Four women instead of the opposite was designed by men for men. If men gave birth, I think the workplace would look very different.

Laura Khalil:   15:56
Oh, tell us about it. Yeah, Rial. I mean, think

Julie Kratz:   16:00
about it. Most organizations until very recently did not have, um, nursing rooms for women. Um, I know I pumped in a closet six years ago, and you're literally crying over spilled milk. It was so stressful just after three months. Like forget it. Um and and then, you know, this is how people treat you. Makes so many assumptions about your value when you're pregnant, when you have young people, even if you're not the primary caregiver. I was not the primary caregiver in my case, and there were many assumptions made about my ability to travel my ability to work, extended hours, my commitment, to be honest, which really hit my integrity. Um, and it's no surprise, you know, for me, I lasted about another year. Forget it. And I have this person at home that deeply cares about me, and I care about I cannot keep going into a job where I don't feel cared for or I don't feel like my commitment is being taken seriously. So I think

Laura Khalil:   16:59
that happens

Julie Kratz:   17:00
for a lot of women, and it shows up in different ways, right? We know, women are starting businesses at much higher rates than men Now, um, and when women don't free, you know, just like arguments. We don't feel like we belong in workplace. We're just We're not gonna stay.

Laura Khalil:   17:13
Absolutely. You know, your story reminds me of something. My last full time job was about seven years ago, and there was a woman, a good friend of mine in the organization who was pregnant, And I remember her hiding it until she could not hide it any more. And I think she got really close to about six months more. She felt like Okay, Now I have to tell them on what a terrible position to be in where you know that everything about your as you said, your commitment, how you're gonna work with the team if you're worth it to keep on is all going to be questioned. The minute people know that you're pregnant. And I certainly hope some of that has changed over the years. But maybe it hasn't changed everywhere. I just

Julie Kratz:   18:01
had a female on former colleague a year and 1/2 ago, was pregnant. Said as soon as I made the announcement, she was intact. as soon as she made the announcement with with mostly men, they just they stopped inviting her to meetings. They said things like, Well, you're pregnant, you know? I mean, it was almost like You're not, You don't exist anymore. And I think in their mind again, well intentioned behavior so benevolent sexism where we treat people according to their gender, Um, we're given sex it with good intentions. But again, it's a signal that you don't belong, that you're not a full human here, and we don't We're not gonna invite you to things that we used to invite use. You're just totally treated differently. And for a lot of women, they're like what just happened? Like it was like a light switch, Like I was once now valued, and now I no longer and I think, then just don't understand that experience, right? It's complex. It's different than something. They've experienced it. So when we don't understand something a lot of times as humans, we gotta shut it out because it's confusing and it's hard, Um, and and that's that's really not helpful because what we know about women, especially women, that our mothers are really the spies goes to any woman in the child bearing age, even if you don't have Children. So that's another unfortunate part of it is we know this bias carries through where, um, we're not treated the same. And women, especially women with Children, are extremely in general, another generalization, extremely hard worker. So you're not getting the most from, like this amazing potential of talent. And if they're having to cover like your friend did tend to hide a part of a major part of their identity for six months that is mentally taxing. There's no way she was showing up doing her best work, having to cover and filter and hide a huge part of her identity. So in the more we looked, people be the full cells at work, that the better off everyone will be.

Laura Khalil:   19:54
Absolutely. And it, you know, it creates this ah sense of a lack of psychological safety within the company. So who can really work well when they are constantly questioning if they're gonna have a job? If people are going to treat them with this benevolent sexism as you so well put it, uh, because everything there it's not a safe space. It's not a safe environment to be yourself now. One of the things that I love you talk about in the book is, and one of the things I'm really passionate about is teaching women how to address these challenges. So if I am a woman and let's say I'm a new mom and I'm going through some of these challenges, suddenly I'm not invited to meetings or suddenly I'm told, Oh, you know, just sit down, relax. You don't need to take trap or, you know, you don't need to do any of this stuff. What, you talk a little bit about the grow method or the grow model of dealing with challenges. Would you recommend that model here, And can you tell us more about it? Yeah, yeah, it's a great

Julie Kratz:   20:58
coaching model. So as somebody that's went through the credentialing process to be a coach, one of the most powerful things I learned in that own process that's transformed relationships I have with my clients and help them work with there. Coworkers and teams better, um, is that role model. What I like about it is it's an acronym for for listeners out through a simple Google search you can find it. You can probably find models of questions, things to go with it. I mean, you're right, it's referenced in the book, and it's essentially just goal. Um, you know, when we're gonna have a tough conversation with somebody, we want to start with a goal. An objective for that conversations. If you, for instance, see unhelpful behaviour. Some of the things we've been talking about exclusionary behaviors just setting an intention and a conversation to say, Hey, um, the goal of this conversation is for us to talk about this, right? And and is that okay? You get some permission up front and then paint the reality. The reality is is that we are not so inclusive because we're doing a B and C fill in the blank because people need to experience some level of pain. T manifest any sort of behavior change. Um, we're hardwired to stay the same. It's a survival mechanism.

Laura Khalil:   22:11
That is a really interesting statement I love. Yuck. Please expand on that.

Julie Kratz:   22:16
Yeah, well, it's e think you think any time you can to try to change behavior if it's agreeable, working out more, eating healthy, how d 05 days when you revert to past the anger exists how my brain works. Stay safe, stay alive. The other stuff kept you alive. Don't change. Um, And I think this is why workplaces really struggle. Because despite the best of intentions around diversity and inclusion, um, I don't see much progress even with clients I'm working with, to be candid, um, because behavior change is so hard and it's so ingrained in our biases air so deep rooted and taught from a very young age that it really takes an intentional set of systems of tools. Things like the grow model back to that really uncovering, paying in a conversation. Um, so it's gold reality options and will race running some options together. And then one of the most important, often missed parts of important candid conversation is commitment. The

Laura Khalil:   23:15
will. What will we do? What will you do? What will

Julie Kratz:   23:19
I do? What are the next act? I joke a lot of conversations I'm a part of, and I love watching meetings, just fascinating to me. Weird kind of guilty pleasure. I wish there was a wish there wasn't, like a Netflix special on media corporate meetings. I mean, It's just riddled with all sorts of interesting behaviors.

Laura Khalil:   23:38
Tell him to tell us more about that. What happens in these? You have a whole section on meetings, and I wanted to ask you about what is going on in

Julie Kratz:   23:46
means. Um, boy, yeah. I mean, I think, as an ally, when I called somebody that wants to help others leverage a privilege for good keeper antenna up in our next meeting and just pay attention to who has the speaking roles. Who's talking more than listening? I'm his interrupting his being interrupted. Uh, who's taking notes? He was cleaning up afterwards. I mean, these gender things still hold true today, and it's very unfortunate that women are four times more likely to be interrupted, which we know is a big deal. People yell Snee interruption, but takes 23 minutes for your brain to get back to that thought. So you've lost 23 minutes of your life because of the thrust right, and men are just more likely to do it. They do it to each other, too, but they're more likely to do it to women. Um, and they're more likely to dominate meetings, and they're more likely to be the decision maker when everyone looks to be like, Okay, green light. Let's go. Um, good. Flip that script. Good team meetings. You have the intention, the expectation from leadership that everyone will participate. And that means a good meeting facilitator that draws people into the conversation. If they're standoffish of the body, language is signalling. They don't agree. They asked. Um, looks like you don't agree. Like, let's talk about up that I want to hear a different perspective here. You may ask things like, What perspective are we missing?

Laura Khalil:   25:11
Please, Julie, excuse me for interrupting. Julie, look at me. Let me just jump in and just contradict everything. I'm really curious about the facilitator role is that something that you recommend is a rotating position or are more people? Are there certain people who are just more naturally skilled at that? And you recommend, let's let's allow them to play that role.

Julie Kratz:   25:37
Yeah, you know, I learned facilitation by watching and observing skilled facilitators. To be honest, have been doing it for, you know, 30 plus years. So I was very fortunate to get to watch a bunch of old white guys honestly, and I remember like I was like, I want to do that. Like, Why can't I do that yet? Pout and bathroom. Go back in and take notes. But you

Laura Khalil:   25:59
can learn a

Julie Kratz:   25:59
lot by watching skilled facilitators just like any of the Allied behaviors I talk about it. It's absolutely it learned behavior. It's a muscle. What you learned If Lex cool, Um, the word facilitated things very interesting. It's a French words of anyone knows French. Basile is the French word for easy. So facilitate literally means to make easy you're guiding the conversation. Your job is to make the conversation easy, to make a decision easy for our voices to be heard easy for people to get what they want. I mean, who goes to meetings and looks forward to them who really got a meeting

Laura Khalil:   26:36
with confetti? Okay, we spent a week 50

Julie Kratz:   26:39
percent of our corporate Livermore in meetings and not getting anything done. So you have a facilitator or anything for companies that are large enough, you know, there's plenty of training programs out there to send a handful of, you know, high performing emerging leaders when every column into some facilitation training for a couple of days, then you'd really get a nice boost on productivity because meetings made to be facilitated by people that don't have bias. Ah, that truly listened to learn and ask really good questions.

Laura Khalil:   27:09
You said something that's really critical. People who listen to learn and, you know, seek to understand Wow rather than people who are listening to wait to respond. And I hope everyone can hear that we all are guilty of this at some point or another in our lives and in our interactions. But listening to learn to gain insight is absolutely critical. So if we have a listener who is in a meeting, let's say there's no facilitator, which is often the case or, you know, someone's attempting to facilitate. But it's kind of meandering. It's out of control. People are not feeling. Listen to him. How can we sort of Carell the chaos in that? What do you How do we Are there a specific set of things that we can say? OK, here the guidelines for good meetings.

Julie Kratz:   28:00
Can you tell us more about that? Yeah. I wish I had the magic meeting pill. Take this woman, go to your meeting and everyone will listen. Um, you know, it's complex. It really I think first, especially if you're a leader owner role in it, right? So how are you contributing to the ineffectiveness of said meeting? Um, who is the leader of the meeting? In a lot of times, no one's like dieting the meeting a few nights a week, at least have some. It's like in charge of the agenda, making sure that all telling question of the and what did we decide had to do today? Is asked with five minutes to spare. We like honestly and meetings. And like abruptly leaving, nothing changes. And everyone wonders why the next meeting feels like the last meeting. We don't decide to do anything, so I think make sure you have something that's their role is at least two only agenda, even if they don't want a facilitator or not equipped to you and thinking about how you can draw people in one of the biggest mrs of meetings that they're largely dominated by the same types of people. And that's just not good for anybody. It's really frustrating. I had a client a couple years ago that she called it like the bobbin Tom Show just you guys and talk before meeting and no one else got a chance to talk. The leader never called him out on it, and no one like that meeting and is that client left and I mean, we don't stay places were behavior like that's tolerated. And actually, the more we say things like that are okay, the more we set the standard for it to happen in the future. So if you want to change the culture, you want to change a meeting. Yoon hee need to demonstrate these behaviors you need to listen to learn you need to facilitate. You need to define key next steps and the agenda on the front and draw. People

Laura Khalil:   29:43
find ways to

Julie Kratz:   29:43
draw people in. You know, not everybody is an extra Burt. Not everybody likes to talk, um, in front of 20 people. So find a way to get there, input on the side or before the meeting, or you ask him if it's okay for you to call on him in the meeting or whatever it is it takes to draw everybody in. Because those people, especially people who quiets and meetings and they've got some golden nuggets to share. There's some really good thing you're hiding and we have to take this mistake silence for agreement. And it's often not the case.

Laura Khalil:   30:12
Absolutely. I think that's such a great point. I, um I was on a team recently with a gentleman who had profound insight, but he was not some what he liked to think about it. Before he responded. He really wanted to come with a fully fleshed thought, you know, as opposed to people like myself and others who were not afraid to jump in and just say what's on our mind. But maybe that's not the best idea, but it is. It can sometimes be the loudest idea. That doesn't mean it's the right one. So right. I love that, uh, helping draw these people in in the ways that they can help contribute cause they may not be the ones to, you know, just jump in with something that may not be their style of communicating

Julie Kratz:   30:54
exactly. That's exactly meet people where they're at think is an ally. What allies again kind of inclusive leaders is, is what I call an ally is there they're good at reading people and reading people. You don't have to like, have a psych degree or anything complicated either. So many tools out there. But you think about what you know about the person you were observing that the man you were talking about something just observe somebody like what motivates, Um, when do you see them? At their best. What have they told you? They're passionate about it. Taken inventory. And if you don't know those things about people you work with, what an opportunity to learn. And that could be a powerful lunch conversation, A walk in talk. It doesn't have to be some like formal team building Robert Ross session. But there's ways that you can figure out what makes people tick and how they want to be communicated with. And I know that sounds like a lot of work. And why do I have to do this for other people? Why don't they just do it for me? You can't change other people. We can only change ourselves, and everyone knows that. But we still expect the fresh wave the wand and see how that works, like get back to me because they usually doesn't actually kind of ticks people off when you ask him to change for you.

Laura Khalil:   32:10
Yeah, a little bit.

Julie Kratz:   32:11
Hannibal, do some detective work, and I'm talking about, like, five minutes. Just think before a conversation about what do you think this person wants? Okay, how could I How could I had to get myself a little bit to meet him where they're at and it's humans. We have mirror neurons in our brains were gonna mirror what we see a somebody's flexing towards us and like adapting to us, we will adapt back. Most likely, it's very rare that people stick it to you when you're being kind. Um, and it's just a big lesson. I think, for today's leaders, like, don't go in with your own agenda. Like, really try to co created an agenda with someone instead.

Laura Khalil:   32:47
Oh, my gosh, to I love that, I want to ask you one last question. Um, you talk about some research that, uh, states that kind of women have are sometimes dissuaded for meeting one on one with men, and sometimes that can be due to this fear of sexual harassment. So for men who are listening who feel like, you know, I would like to be a better ally to a woman or other minorities within the company. But they have sort of these lingering fears of not wanting to, I don't know seem inappropriate in some way, which, to me is just like, don't be a dick. It seems pretty obvious to thio you did in fourth

Julie Kratz:   33:34
grade, and you're probably be all right.

Laura Khalil:   33:36
All right. So what would you What do you say to that? How do you How do you help these men realize? You know, you need to do this. You need to overcome your fear more than ah, you know, it's just that important to get this done.

Julie Kratz:   33:51
Yeah, well, two things, Um, what you're highlighting as some research from lean in. They did a study every year, and it's getting worse. Men not wanting Thio work alone with women. Um, my response to that. So it is. It is you because of a fear of saying or doing the wrong thing or being perceived as some sort of harasser. I get it, man, it's been a bit of a scary time the last two and 1/2 years with me too. But I think room find yourself. It's always been a scary time for women. Always. So I get that the fear has been awoken with men. Um, but recognizing that most women are harassed in the workplace, one and three women will be assaulted. And then, like, I mean, there's some staggering statistics out there about the reality of the, um, lack of safety for women in 2020. Now, on the other side of that, I think also ask yourself as a man can get over the fear if you

Laura Khalil:   34:48
put yourself

Julie Kratz:   34:49
in the shoes. If you could be in practice of empathy a little bit and just think, think what it would be like to walk around as a woman in your organization, how would you get your work done if you couldn't meet alone with men night? You couldn't. It's impossible. So women don't have a choice to work with men to be the only woman in a meeting, often toe work alone with men. Um, we don't get that choice. Why do you think you have that choice? It's really not fair. And I'm not trying to be a dear point A dick about this, I think is it's like, OK, men are retreating from the conversation of the very time we need them the most. That's not okay. Like, Come on, you weren't You're You're not gonna get in trouble for behavior. It's looking to keep your hands to yourself and your respectful if it really is, like the golden rule we learn in elementary school. Don't touch people that don't want to be touched, you know, be kind and respectful of others. That's all we're asking for. We're just asking for respect and and women don't want to be the whistle blowers. Most harassment case is inappropriate. Communication conversations are hushed at organizations. They really come out. So I think that the few that we're seeing the brave women that are speaking out, um, we need to believe them. And we need to honor that. There's, um, there that the workplace safety should be a human right for everybody. So that's if your work place isn't safe for everybody. That's that's not good for anyone, right?

Laura Khalil:   36:19
Absolutely. What I tell my clients often is what if it's a man who says, Well, I'm I'm scared and I don't really know howto interact with women. I always say, Well, just remember the rock rule And that is to picture the woman as Dwayne the rock Johnson, who is someone who could, you know, crush you with their pinky if you, um you know, disrespect them, just act respectfully towards women. It is not hard. It is very easy. And women are women are not looking to sue. Women are not looking. You create problems. If anything, we're looking to smooth with a sober and avoid them. Totally. Well,

Julie Kratz:   37:01
it's like this dark clown follows you. If you you report something, I mean friends. Yeah, Gonna report it. I'm sure. Right now you're the problem person. At your organizations, you have to leave, and then people that reputation follows you to the next place. You can't get rid of it. We don't want men to get in trouble. We just flooded. Be treated fairly.

Laura Khalil:   37:21
Yeah, and I will say

Julie Kratz:   37:23
I love that the rock rule.

Laura Khalil:   37:24
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just you look it up. It's so great. I just absolutely love. It is very clear. It's very easy to understand, um and and it's it's just kind of a clear visualisation we can all use. And similarly, you know, women are wise to treat men that way as well. I think we d'oh more naturally. Um well, this is just Julie. This is just flown by. No, Spence, I'm so

Julie Kratz:   37:52
thankful. I'm for your support of the book and for your deep knowledge and expertise in this area. We need more brave women like you out there.

Laura Khalil:   38:00
Thank you, Julie. And I'm glad to call you one of them. Um, let us know. How can our listeners stay in touch with you? Yeah,

Julie Kratz:   38:07
absolutely. So we have a plethora of free resource is over at next. Pivot point dot com. And that's actually our social handle too. So you can follow us on Twitter on instagram on Facebook at next Pivot point. And LinkedIn is where I post daily. So I'm always publishing articles, videos, content. We have a bunch of free work books, all sorts of things that can get you started on your ally journey. And, um, that that's really the best place over linked in so Julie Kratz, K r a t z is a great place toe. Follow me and into message me and to share your story.

Laura Khalil:   38:48
Julie, Thanks so much again. This was Julie Kratz with us. The book is lead like an ally. And I will put in the show notes for this episode All of those places you mentioned to follow you. Julie, Thank you so much for being with us on. Brave by design.

Julie Kratz:   39:01
Thanks for having me.

Laura Khalil:   39:04
I want to thank you for joining me. And remember to subscribe to your favorite app so you can stay up to date. And I would love your review. If you've enjoyed this episode, please leave a review and comment on apple podcasts. You can also keep in touch with me online. You confine me on Lincoln and I'm also on instagram at force of Bad Ass Irie. All that information it will be available in the show notes until next time. Stay brave.