WTF is Spiritual Bypassing?! with Kaylee Friedman

Kaylee Friedman is a trauma informed psychotherapist, speaker, and mindfulness instructor living in Princeton, New Jersey. She teaches people how to undo a lifetime of cultural, familial, and trauma-related conditioning so that they can unearth and reconnect to their deepest selves. Kaylee uses a variety of tools such as yoga, mindfulness, and reiki to integrate whole-being wellness into her work. She is currently seeing individuals and couples for counseling at Olive Branch Therapy Group via online teletherapy, teaching mindfulness workshops, and can be found on instagram @kayleerosetherapy sharing guided meditations and psychoeducation and at www.olivebranchtherapygroup.com.

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Transcript

Laura Khalil : 0:03

All righty, everyone. Welcome to this episode of brave by design. I am really excited for us to talk to today's guest Kaylee Friedman is a trauma informed psychotherapist, speaker and mindfulness instructor living in Princeton, New Jersey. She teaches people how to undo a life of cultural, familial and trauma related conditioning, so that they can unearth and reconnect to their deepest selves. She uses a variety of tools such as yoga, mindfulness and Reiki to integrate whole being wellness into her work. She is currently seeing individuals and couples for counseling at Olive Branch therapy group via online teletherapy. Teaching mindfulness workshops and you can find her online we will put all the links to that in the comments, Kaylee, welcome to brave by design.

Kaylee Friedman : 0:53

Yay. Thank you. I'm so excited to chat

Laura Khalil : 0:57

in rally. I'm very happy to have you Hear because I think that trauma is one of these things that we're talking just in sort of like the collective consciousness, it's coming up more and more. But can we just level set? What is trauma? What does that mean?

Kaylee Friedman : 1:14

That is a big question. And super important to start with. So trauma, just generally widely defined is when something some not one thing, sometimes it's a lot of little things, but there's an event or situation where the person is so overwhelmed and their nervous system is so overwhelmed, and they're not able to fix change escape. Essentially, they experience powerlessness within a given situation. And the result is that the nervous system is so triggered and stuck in that triggering that then it becomes a trauma. And there's no we say that it's not there. There's no one specific event that can define trauma. It's how the person experiences that event. So we kind of have divided this idea into two different sort of traumas, small t traumas and big t traumas. Okay, what is that all t trauma. So, a small t trauma might be a series of micro aggressions throughout your life, living at growing up, like neglected or abused by parents in many, many small ways over time, that kind of build up and then a big t trauma would be more like a sexual assault, a natural disaster, you know, some sort of outright form of abuse in that sort of way, like one event,

Laura Khalil : 2:52

just one very impactful event that sort of causes the nervous system to go haywire and Then we can kind of as I understand it, we can continue to sort of relive it in certain ways or it can pop up at certain times and it can feel like we're re experiencing it.

Kaylee Friedman : 3:09

Yes, absolutely. And that it lives in our bodies. Mm hmm.

Laura Khalil : 3:15

Now, so we're so that's interesting. You talk about a small t trauma and a big t trauma. Where would you put Coronavirus on that scale?

Unknown Speaker : 3:25

That is such a

Kaylee Friedman : 3:26

question, I think really depends on the individual. Especially because we're all in such different situations within social distancing quarantine. Are we a first responder? Are we working from home? Are we working parents? Are we stuck at the home with an abuser? I mean, there's just so many layers that it really I feel like could be either one depending on the person's individual person's experience,

Laura Khalil : 3:53

but it does feel like whatever form of trauma it does feel like we are excited Experiencing like a collective trauma? Would you agree with that?

Kaylee Friedman : 4:04

Absolutely. 100%. And so

Laura Khalil : 4:06

what are you? I mean, it's interesting because we got connected over Instagram, because you put this post up that I was just like, yes. And it was all about the really toxic ways that within certain communities we respond to what's happening. And some of those are like can be like, sort of New Age beliefs or spiritual beliefs. And you know, listen, guys do whatever you want, but sometimes that stuff isn't really helpful. Mm hmm. For other people going through trauma. And so, I would love if you could unpack, like, what are the things that you're hearing? where you say, you know, that's not really useful to people right now. And like, how can we reframe it? Right?

Kaylee Friedman : 4:56

Yeah, that was a fun post. I got a lot of interesting comments. Did you? Yeah, people really felt like I was attacking some of their spiritual beliefs, I think which is funny because when you know me, I'm like, oh, there's an essential oil for that. And here's my crystals and like on a personal level, like, I'm the most granola person but yeah, I mean, what I have been noticing on Instagram and I notice it because I did it when I was first on the platform, you know, I started an account when I was still a student and I wanted to be you know, sharing what I was learning and I was super heavy into a lot of spiritual ideas. And I thought that I was helping when I was just really positive

Laura Khalil : 5:45

Ah, oh God, the pause Don't even get me started on positivity. I will go off on a whole thing. But yeah, it was that is that like the just be positive thing?

Kaylee Friedman : 5:56

Right, exactly. Um, and I since that I've learned that there are I've learned that there are many, many layers to the idea of spiritual bypassing, and they're often like really nuanced and sometimes hard to detect

Laura Khalil : 6:13

what is spiritual bypassing?

Kaylee Friedman : 6:16

spiritual bypassing is when we use spiritual ideas to circumvent or avoid feelings that we don't want to feel ideas that we don't want to face interactions that we don't want to have, basically using spirituality as a way to avoid unpleasantness.

Laura Khalil : 6:40

So how does that like show up? What would what's an example of that we see of people spiritually bypassing? Yeah.

Kaylee Friedman : 6:49

So there's so many different aspects of spiritual bypassing. One big one that I see a lot is this hyper focus on On a, let's say, anger is one. There's like this phobia of anger. So as a spiritual community, especially more New Age community, we've sort of collectively decided that anger is dense, dark, negative, heavy, bad energy. Yes, bad energy, bad vibes. Right? So, um, so we use our spiritual, our spiritual beliefs to avoid ever showing anger. If someone shows us anger, we, we rather than responding to the content of what they're actually saying, will sort of respond to the tone that they're saying it in. I mean, and that could go into like this whole other category of tone policing, which is you know, but in the spiritual community, this is Like coming from this fear that I don't want to seem like an angry person, I don't want to feel anger, anger is bad. So we disown anger and then we avoid engaging with it.

Laura Khalil : 8:12

You know what's so interesting about that, and I'll talk about it from the angle that I I'll talk about it from the positivity angle. And I actually think this is probably apples to apples. People who I meet, who say, Well, you've just got to be positive, in my opinion, are some of the most seriously depressed people I have ever met. They are unbelievably negative. They're unbelievably not capable of dealing with their stuff. They are caught in a lot of these sort of overwhelm frustration loops. And what I always tell people and maybe you're similar what I always tell people is Listen, you have the emotion for a reason.

Unknown Speaker : 8:56

Yeah, like

Laura Khalil : 8:58

feel into it. And I remember one therapist told me she said, Laura, every emotion has a beginning, middle and end. Just allow the feeling, feel it and realize that's going to come to an end at some point and you'll be able to move on. But I'd love to hear your advice for people who are like, Is that what it how it presents with people who say like, oh, like you're being too low vibe by being angry? Are they just actually really angry?

Unknown Speaker : 9:27

Like in rage?

Kaylee Friedman : 9:30

Oh, my gosh, that's funny. Yeah, I mean, there's so many layers. I actually wrote a list down. If you want to hear my guess. I too, have, like ways that we spiritually bypass. Okay. So exaggerated detachment.

Unknown Speaker : 9:49

What is that?

Kaylee Friedman : 9:50

So that's like this idea that I'm above my own reactions or emotions. So if someone says something to me that It's rude or offensive or frustrating. I don't react. I'm detached. I am. I'm above it all. I'm spiritual. So I'm not going to have a reaction but inside

Laura Khalil : 10:09

you're probably still fuming or

Kaylee Friedman : 10:13

right. Yeah. But you're trying to avoid those uncomfortable feelings by, you know, detaching from them essentially.

Unknown Speaker : 10:24

Wow, that seems very disembodied.

Kaylee Friedman : 10:26

Yes, yes. That's the whole thing is that this the it's this idea that in order to become enlightened,

Unknown Speaker : 10:36

in air quotes,

Kaylee Friedman : 10:37

yeah, I was about to say listeners can't see me. I'm enlightened transcending. We're trying to transcend ourselves, our bodies. And, and that's sort of the opposite of spirituality in my opinion and experience, in that our bodies are just these rich amazing messengers that are constantly sending us data and helping us experience ourselves in the world and the vehicle that we interact with our, with the world through. And here we are trying to ascend or I like to transcend it.

Laura Khalil : 11:17

It's kind of like the obstacle is the way, you know, like you've kind of got to walk through it. You can't leapfrog it, you know, you've got to experience it to transcend. Right So what are some of the other spiritual bypassing examples you have?

Kaylee Friedman : 11:34

Yeah, um, so emotional numbing, and repression kind of goes with that detachment, sort of all in the same category. We talked about overemphasis on the positive and having sort of a phobia of anger. Those are pretty big ones. This one's really big for me on a personal level, like I'm super guilty of this one is blind or overly tolerant compassion.

Laura Khalil : 11:59

Okay, so Give me an example of that.

Kaylee Friedman : 12:01

Yeah, so someone says something super rude and offensive to me. And instead of drawing a boundary reacting, you know, appropriately saying, you know, that's not okay for you to say that to me. I would pause, I would reflect on my own reaction. Okay, what is this triggering in me? Why am I having this reaction? And then what does this person really want this all the time?

Laura Khalil : 12:29

I'm like, oh, wait a minute. you're describing my life here daily. Okay, okay. So so we kind of go inward and start like, thinking through it,

Kaylee Friedman : 12:39

which is not necessarily a bad thing. Like that's. So the the skill of being able to stop, reflect before you respond is not blind compassion in and of itself. That's a skill and that's important in life. But when we take it to the extreme that we bypass Our own anger, our own reaction to being mistreated, and then we react to that person who's mistreating us with compassion, then that's not always necessarily healthy.

Laura Khalil : 13:14

Okay, well, that's really I hope people heard that because that is, and I would venture to guess that is a very common reaction with women. Especially when maybe we put in put in situations in our past, where we've been taught don't make him angry. So if there's someone in our life, where it's been like, Don't make them angry, or else, so you learn how to appease or please and, and eat your feelings.

Kaylee Friedman : 13:48

Yes. And in trauma, we there's a new idea that the nervous system has sort of a fourth response, a fond response,

Laura Khalil : 13:58

right? Right. So To tell it so there is and by that you mean the fight flight freeze and fun. Yes. Okay, so tell us about those four response mechanisms of the nervous system. Sure.

Kaylee Friedman : 14:11

So I think fighter fight and flight are sort of like the one that most people are familiar with. And that is when your nervous system is you get like a shot of adrenaline and your heart's racing and you're ready to go, you're going to run or you're going to fight. For me, I feel really shaky. My heart's racing, my hands get sweaty, like I feel like I can't breathe. And that fight or flight, that's your body reacting to danger, something's not safe, and we need to like either protect ourselves or remove ourselves from the situation. That response is usually sort of the first on the ladder if you're thinking of polyvagal theory, which is a whole thing, but that's sort of a newer theory about trauma. So the

Laura Khalil : 14:59

furniture bit about what that Sorry, I want to get back to the last two. Can you tell us what is polyvagal theory just like in a second.

Kaylee Friedman : 15:07

It's just the idea that our nervous systems are connected by our like running off of these three nerves that were that we evolved over time from earliest humans to more present day humans, and that our nervous system responses are based on the art happening within and because of these nerves. Okay, and so there's like, you can tone the nerves over time and sometimes with and with people with trauma, they may have a very strong active, you know, one of the nerves that's responsible for being in fight or flight mode, and then their parasympathetic system, the part that calms you down, maybe a little bit underdeveloped and so on. Okay, this idea you can tone and develop different parts of your nervous system.

Laura Khalil : 16:05

Oh, very cool. Okay, awesome. Because I've heard about polyvagal theory. I just have never, like, looked into it. And so you said that I was like, Oh, wait, what is this? What is that? Yeah.

Kaylee Friedman : 16:14

So I myself, I'm just really getting into it. It's sort of a newer, it's an taking the field by storm, if you will. That's

Laura Khalil : 16:22

awesome. I can't Well, we'll have to investigate that down the road. Right. Okay. So you said fight flight, and then there's freeze, and then there's fun. Okay, so let's talk about freeze.

Kaylee Friedman : 16:35

So freeze is when we get into dissociation. And this is when we're in extended extended stress, fight or flight might last for a shorter period of time and then we can get ourselves grounded. And once that once we get stuck in fight or flight for a very long time or the stressor is so intense that our bodies Essentially needs to protect us from its own reaction. So we dissociate from ourselves and that can feel like feeling floaty, not feeling apathetic, not feeling emotions. This is more like when you're experienced depression, hopelessness, not enjoying things that you'd normally enjoy. You're sort of outside yourself

Unknown Speaker : 17:22

in a way.

Kaylee Friedman : 17:24

And then the the the newer theory and this is still like very much a theory is just an to me from what I've seen, it's more behavioral than it is nervous system based. There's it's still new on the research is the fawn response. And that would be the idea that in order to keep ourselves safe, we will do whatever needs to be done to make the other person who's threatening us. Happy calm, not upset with us have what they need. We're hyper focused. On the other person and their nervous system in order to keep us safe, which we're in that sort of dynamic, we ignore ourselves because it's not safe to care for ourselves or make ourselves a priority in that moment. We have to care for the other person first so that then we can be okay.

Unknown Speaker : 18:19

Oh my gosh.

Laura Khalil : 18:22

That's so tough. I mean, that's really like, I mean, that's heartbreaking. Right? And it's heartbreaking in the sense that many of us are probably inadvertently performing some of these behaviors and we don't realize we're doing it or through like the whole spiritual bypassing since how interesting Are there other major before we talk about like solutions to how do we address spiritual bypassing? Are there any other major bullet points like on spiritual bypassing that you think are important to address? Um, yes.

Kaylee Friedman : 19:01

I think there's this pattern of like over developing our cognitive strengths and not focusing on our emotional strength or intelligence.

Laura Khalil : 19:09

Oh yeah,

Kaylee Friedman : 19:10

very, very much into the ideas and rationalizations and discussion and equanimity and calm detached discussion, not so much valuing emotions like we, we tend to see emotions as like controlling us or like lower and you know, being calm and above it all is a higher state.

Laura Khalil : 19:36

You know, this is so interesting, Kaley, because I have to tell you, I was in an argument last week, and please hear please analyze me. That's what we're going to do right now. isn't an argument last week, I'm over a racist comment that was made. And my my reaction because of the work that I do because of what I teach my reaction is when I see something, I say something immediately. And I am not afraid of conflict. In fact, I think I'm probably a I don't know what the term would be, but I am I'm totally cool with conflict. Okay, because I feel that and certainly not all the time. I mean, listen, I'm a human being. But I've often found that by having conflict, and by really getting and talking to people and getting present about what's going on, I actually find that it makes relationships better. Mm hmm. And so for me, it's like, hey, when we can have this moment and get real with one another and discuss our differences, we may actually understand one another better. We may actually build a bridge between one another and maybe I'll teach you why you're being racist. Okay, so we're anyway, so I was in this discard this group discussion and something happened and I was like, nope, you don't say that. And here's what was really interesting. No one They'll set anything. And the next day a couple of the women in the group responded and said, You know, I was really uncomfortable with how your reaction made me feel. And they said, Why can't we just respond in love? And I said, because I don't respond in love when people use the N word. Oh, period. Yeah, I do not. I respond with correction. Right immediately. And so that to me, I'm wondering if you think that was sort of like, is that spiritual bypassing? Or is that just white fragility? I mean, because I was kind of like, yeah, it's uncomfortable to talk about race, um, and especially as white people because we never have to confront it. Right, but I'm not going I I will allow your uncomfortable sentiment in this situation because I think that's okay. I think it's okay to be uncomfortable.

Kaylee Friedman : 21:57

Right. Ah, that is such a tough situation and brings up so much. There's so much there just in within that situation to discuss. For me, and it's so nuanced. So there's multiple layers. So like, as far as when we practice blind compassion and we avoid confronting people, we're actually protecting ourselves from conflict, which was the first thing I thought of when you started that story is that a lot of us are so uncomfortable with conflict, that we just don't want to have it. So this is under the guise that I'm being a kind person.

Laura Khalil : 22:39

Oh, God, yeah.

Kaylee Friedman : 22:41

When really I'm just I have a fear of confrontation or a fear of not being good. Oh, I avoid that conflict in the first place. That's part of the spiritual bypassing. And then there's this layer of like a That's really difficult within within this whole, like social activism, anti racism sort of space, and like doing that work, which is like so necessary and important, and then also how we do it is really important. And I really like, I really like mixed feelings about it. And I'll tell you why, because we can't. So going back to that fight or flight mode polyvagal theory, we can't learn when we're in fight or flight mode, right?

Laura Khalil : 23:36

We just want to get away,

Kaylee Friedman : 23:38

right? Our prefrontal cortex is off. We are not taking in information. We are reacting emotionally and we're not going to hear what anyone else has to say to us. So if someone if someone says something racist, and like, the N word is like a whole nother level, so like, I think you handled that just the way that it needed to be handled. But under the umbrella of you know, like standing up and yeah, all that. Like when somebody says something that's not okay. And then they're confronted about it. If they're not feeling safe, they're not hearing anything that you have to say. Right. So it behooves us to approach the situation with compassion, enough compassion that that person feels like they have space to explore their shadow, essentially. You can't you're not going to explore your shadow you're not going to be open to looking at parts of people are

Laura Khalil : 24:37

just attacking you. Yes. And I think that's absolutely i mean, i totally agree with that. Yeah,

Kaylee Friedman : 24:43

Tom. And so but it's a fine line like cuz because what people will often do and this is the spiritual bypassing white fragility part is that when they're on the receiving end of that Rather than genuinely being able to self reflect, they might not have the self compassion to be able to do that. Or they might not be feeling safe enough in that moment to be able to do that. The defense mechanism is to focus on how you're saying it, rather than what you're saying. And I see this all over Instagram on every topic imaginable is that I'm not going to respond to the content. I'm not going to respond to the topic. I'm going to respond to how you're speaking to me, because I can't deal with the content or the topic. And the in the spiritual bypassing community, this looks like, oh, wow, you're having a really strong reaction to what I said. I wonder what that says about you. What What is this triggering for you? What is this? What are you projecting on to what I said that's so triggering for you? I really invite you to self reflect here. And it's like, well, no, I'm sorry. Like, fuck you, you said something. Sorry, I don't know if I can cuss on your podcast. Like, no, sorry. Like you said something that's not okay with me. Yeah. Like, I don't know if if that, like if I addressed sort of what you were bringing this up for, but no,

Laura Khalil : 26:17

but I think that's a really interesting point there's there is the ability to say even in conflict even when we are triggered, and and I was absolutely triggered to say, Okay, yeah, I'm triggered and yes, I reacted immediately. But also then to go back later and say, Okay, let's have a conversation about this. I realized because, I mean, he absolutely did shut down. And so we talked about it the next day, and I said, hey, look, I just want to touch base with you. Let's talk about what happened. Because you also have to realize that these types of people, you cannot if you alienate them, it only gets worse. You know, you can't alienate them you have to learn how to talk to them. But certainly in the moment, it can be very, very challenging. And is for me, so, okay, so we've, I want to Let's spend the last few minutes talking about All right, we've talked a lot about emotions. We've talked a lot about avoiding feelings, avoiding anger, avoiding things that are quote unquote low vibe. So what do we do? What is some advice, Kaylee for individuals who are like, you know, I can hear myself in this. And by the way, guys, for our listeners, I can hear myself in some of this too. Like, I think they all do this to a certain extent. Um, what what, what can What can you offer to our listeners who are saying, Yeah, okay, I hear that. So what do I do when I feel angry? Or what do I do when I want to, you know, say, oh, they're, you know, they're a low energy person. Mm hmm.

Kaylee Friedman : 27:51

Yeah. I think for me, the thing that the what the practice that has completely turned this around for me is self compassion practice is that I avoid uncomfortable, dense, heavy emotions because they're scary. And that's human and that's normal and natural to not want to feel that we've mistaken detachment for freedom. And so we need to sort of go back and rewind and and move through the emotions instead of trying to get above and around them. So for me, that looks like slowing down and being with myself and validating my emotions and and letting myself sit in them a little bit. You know, letting myself process letting myself you know, feel fully feel the feeling like one of the most like incredible It seems like such a dumb thing to me now. But one of the most incredible practices for me has been when I'm mad, going outside, I have gravel in my driveway and throwing little pieces of gravel really hard. Right? I'm just getting in my body and being angry for a little bit and I'm observing myself throw a tantrum. I know that this is happening. I'm not completely identified with the anger. But I am with the anger as in I'm side by side with it.

Laura Khalil : 29:31

Yeah. And then you let it out. Yes, in a way that's not destructive to other people. Right,

Kaylee Friedman : 29:37

which is highly, that's good for everyone. And my relationships. And then there's like this sense of, I'm not moving over my emotions. It's not a horizontal movement. I'm expanding around above and below and there's room there's room within us to hold all of it. Mm hmm. And that maybe that's all like, not very practical and specific, but some of the tools are yoga. I have my own therapist that I see, you know, weekly and process a lot of stuff with that embodied movement of throwing rocks or

Laura Khalil : 30:20

Yeah, yeah, I mean, it's interesting because that you're the solutions you're describing, are actually generally pretty embodied. Mm hmm. And I get why is that because, you know, my first my first thing would be like, we'll go journal about it. But journaling, and I do love journaling. But journaling is really still in the head. Exactly. And so tell me about a little bit about why you're suggesting such embodied practices. How does that how does that help integrate and pass through the emotion or what what's the benefit there?

Kaylee Friedman : 30:53

Yeah, exactly. And motions are felt sense. Emotions are embodied emotions. There's a physical component to emotions. And a lot of the journaling, the meditation, these are mind centered practices and they're valuable and I love them and I do them myself. But when you're dealing with emotions, and especially if you're someone that's been through trauma, and not even trauma, just like we've all been, we've all been through childhood wounding. That's sort of like a piece of, of being a human. No one has parents that were able to meet every single need that they had. That's just not a thing. Yeah, so we all have this like wounding, and it lives in our bodies. And when we feel emotions, these are old emotions. We've been feeling emotion since we were children. And so there's a history, like a somatic history that goes along with the emotion even if the situation's completely unrelated to anything we've ever experienced. The emotion is

Unknown Speaker : 31:55

very familiar.

Kaylee Friedman : 31:56

It lives in our yes familiar and It lives in our body and it and it brings with it a history. And so it's exactly what you said like moving through the emotion moving with the emotion. And that physical embodiment piece is something newer for me that I'm working on in my own life because I come from this more like energetic. I'm a Reiki practitioner. I'm I've been, you know, like doing more like thinking spiritual work talk therapy. And now I actually just started taking Alexander Technique courses. I'm not familiar with that. And it's a it's an embodiment practice where someone sort of like gently guides you in becoming more aware of your body. Cool. It's been really interesting. And so I noticed things that I've never noticed before, like when I'm making my coffee in the morning, and my shoulders are hunched over because I'm like, cold and tired. And my I'm keeping my hands very like cold. into my body. And then I sort of like have this moment where I noticed my posture. And I look like a troll or like a witch brewing something and I just start cracking up and then I take a breath and expand and open my arms and relax my shoulders and you know, just have this moment of like grounding and being in myself.

Laura Khalil : 33:21

What I like about that is it's not and I just don't make the distinction for our audience, because what you're doing is not like a self judgment where you're beating yourself up for not having the right posture, because I think a lot of people will go to that, like, Oh my gosh, why can't I stand up? tall enough? Or, you know, why am I hunched over or why is you know, my belly like this or whatever. And they get very self critical and it doesn't sound like that's what you're doing and I just want to make the distinction for the audience. This isn't about being even more self critical.

Kaylee Friedman : 33:56

Oh my god. Yes. That is a huge piece of the puzzle. I'm so glad you said that I think are part of our culture or like in American and in America and just a capitalist sort of like, vibe is like to push yourself harder. That motivation comes from being hard on yourself. And people are often really afraid that if they're gentle or self compassionate, then they won't achieve as much or they'll give themselves a pass so to speak. Or they'll be lazier and motivated. And what actually happens is that the harder and more judgmental you are of yourself the least the less likely you are willing to look at the things that you would like to change, because it's so painful to look at things that you don't like about yourself because there's the pain of the thing. And then there's all the judgment and shame that you've added on top of it. So it's really, really important to bring that that self compassion and to realize and acknowledge that every behavior every every pattern that we have, it's there for a reason. And that reason was to protect us from something at some point. And it's just not working anymore. It's not serving us.

Laura Khalil : 35:17

Oh my gosh, Kelly, this is so great. I want to say one more thing that I found really helpful because I cannot stand yoga. And if there's anyone else listening to this, who is like, I will not do any more yoga. I love dancing. Oh, yeah, I don't and I and I'm not talking about put it on. Listen, it's Coronavirus, guys. Like I'm not I'm in the house. I'm in the you know, in my PJs or whatever, but I put the music on it for me. It's anywhere from five to 30 minutes. I feel so good. Yeah, not performing for anyone. I'm not dressed up. It's just for me and I it's such a mood booster. I recommend that to me. If you're feeling angry, go dance it out.

Kaylee Friedman : 36:02

That is beautiful. I love that. Yes. Any movement that feels good. I mean, I grew up with like, such a diet culture mentality of like, I did Weight Watchers and I was like 13 Yeah, like weight. And like, so you know that note,

Laura Khalil : 36:16

it's like,

Kaylee Friedman : 36:18

moving your body, like in a prescribed way to burn calories is like, not is so different from moving your body because it feels good. It's kind of like weight but what Where do I even start with that?

Laura Khalil : 36:33

Exactly. I don't even I love that I can move your body and it can just be a fun thing. If you grew up like us and you yes spent your life saying I have to move because I I'm not enough. Hmm. You know, and then people associate hating the gym. Right as the gym equals I'm not enough. Whereas What if the gym just makes you feel good?

Unknown Speaker : 36:56

You know, period.

Laura Khalil : 36:58

Kili, do you have any final tips or advice for the audience? Oh,

Kaylee Friedman : 37:05

hmm. final tips. Feel your feelings. That's it. That's basically the crux of all of it, you know that when we reject a part of when we reject any emotion, we are rejecting a part of our humanity, and how can you ever be fully spiritually embodied if you reject a part of your own self? So that's sort of the, the, that's the checklist that I go through when I get kind of stuck here and I'm like, What am I What am I doing here? Is this spiritual? Is this not spiritual? I kind of have to just be like, okay, is this part of being human? Yes, pain is part of being human. Okay. This is okay.

Laura Khalil : 37:59

Yeah, and then paths.

Unknown Speaker : 38:01

Everything's temporary.

Laura Khalil : 38:02

I love to what one of the things I love to tell my clients, especially the folks who just want to be positive, is that when you only choose to experience or choose to try and experience half the emotions of life, you're never living the fullest expression of your existence. Because you're not experiencing all of the different facets of life that come with sorrow that come with glee that come with anger that come with joy. How can you know joy? If you've never known anger? Yeah, can you know happiness if you've never known sadness? Yeah, that's what we appreciate. You know, it's like, okay, it's all here and it's all okay, Kaley, how can people get in touch with you?

Kaylee Friedman : 38:52

Um, I am on Instagram a lot. I have a love hate relationship with Instagram. They can find me at Kaylie rose therapy, okay. And I also have a website where you can email me about, you know, mindfulness instruction at Kaylee rose therapy calm, and I'm seeing clients in the state of New Jersey and that's through the olive branch website.

Laura Khalil : 39:19

Awesome. We will put links to all of that in the show notes. Kelly, thank you so much for being with us on brave by design. You're welcome. Thank you for having me.